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derek
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Cairns - Who cares?
« Thread Started on Feb 3, 2008, 7:19pm »
This is the latest of The Sharp Edge debates. Please send your ideas for future debates to me via a Personal Message on the Forum.

To send a PM, click on derek and then click Send Personal Message.

This week, Andy has selected the subject for The Sharp Edge Debate – Cairns – Who cares?

Andy will put up the first post after which the soapbox is yours!

Over to you, Andy ...

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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #1 on Feb 3, 2008, 7:26pm »
Andy is away this evening and asked me to put up his first post.


Cairns, Love them or hate them?

All of us at some time or another have made use of these man made structures. Whether it is to rest our weary bones, seek shelter from the howling wind or use as a navigational aid in bad weather. They can be as simple as a couple of rocks on the side of a path or a magnificent construction on a fell top.

Hardly a subject for a debate on their own but let me ask you this:

1. Memorial cairns, for example the Westmorland Cairn on Great Gable:
'Erected in 1876 by two brothers of the name of Westmorland to mark what they considered to be the finest mountain viewpoint in the district, this soundly built and tidy cairn is wellknown, to climbers and walkers alike and has always been respected. The cairn has maintained its original form throughout the years quite remarkably: apart form visitors who like to add a pebble, it has suffered neither from the weather nor from human despoilers.'
A.Wainwright Great Gable p. 28

Should this, and other cairns like it be restored to its former glory? If so who is to undertake the task? Could it be a project for the society for example? Can you think of others that need the same care?

2. Other cairns:
'There are hundreds of unnecessary cairns on the fells, and no great loss would be suffered if they were scattered, but those on the summits of the mountains have a special significance: they are old friends and should be left inviolate in their lonely stations to greet their visitors. This was how it used to be and they were treated with respect. Fellwalkers knew them well.'
A.Wainwright Dale Head p. 9

Many summit cairns have evolved from pyramids of rocks to half moon wind breaks. Is this good or bad? Walkers who religiously pick up a stone and add it to any cairn, should this be encouraged or frowned upon?

3. Lastly, where is your favourite cairn and why?

Andy
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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #2 on Feb 3, 2008, 7:42pm »
Whilst offering no personal opinion at this moment in time I attach a link to a The Mountaineering Council of Scotland on Mountain Memorials.

http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/pitch-in/memorials.html

It may give an insight to others thoughts. Please note I have not read all the inputs so I do not know what language as been used.
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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #3 on Feb 4, 2008, 1:21am »
The use of cairns as route indicators on some difficult to spot footpaths is a good thing. Better than a big wooden signpost. A larger cairn to mark a summit is fine. Memorial cairns are a different subject. Cairns with a history associated to the Fells should be looked after but I feel new large memorial cairns and monuments should be "vetted" by the local authorities. After my last visit to Great Gable, last summer, I think the summit area may turn white in the future. Not somewhere I wanted to sit and eat my sarnies. I'm sorry if my comments upset any forum readers. Future memorial park benches, monuments, statues and such are best left by the lakesides. An occasional sad note and posey of flowers on the fells is enough of a sobering sight.

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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #4 on Feb 4, 2008, 10:29am »
Having just read the first 2 replies to this "Sharp Edge" I thought that I had better clarify the subject.
The Memorial Cairns that I was hoping would be discussed are the "historic" cairns which have been in place for many years and now part of the landscape.
The topic of modern day memorials and the scattering of ashes etc is another topic which I believe may be covered on this board in the near future.
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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #5 on Feb 4, 2008, 1:09pm »
There are a multitude of cairns scattered about the fells of Lakeland some dating back to to many of thousands of years ago. The more recent ones such as those which we see on the summits of the 214 and other fells have become familar sights to us all through our ventures onto the fells and through the Pictorial Guides.

Andy poses the question “should the more well known cairns such as the Westmorland Cairn on Gable be maintained “ and I would have to say I believe so. Throughout many decades they have become part & parcel of the landscape and providing that maintainance was done by someone with the necessary skills they should remain so. This also applies to the more well known of the summit cairns such as Thornthwaite Beacon etc. He also asks who should maintain them and poses the question could it be a project for the Wainwright Society. I find this harder to answer. There are I am sure still a number of people about with the necessary skills to carry out any remedial work but feel that it should be done on a voluntary basis. Maybe the Wainwright Society through its members could point out where work is needed but to actually take on the committment to maintain is a long term and possibly costly project and is for others to decide.

The vast majority of summit cairns are however just a collection of local rocks. The question as to whether they should be added to by every passing walker arises regularly and I have always maintained that it purely a personal choice. I would however like to see them at least represent a cairn and not evolve into windbreaks /shelters.

Pathway cairns.....my own thoughts are that there are far too many of them but I could not just kick them over, I would just hope that they were never added to.

Personal favourite: Lingmell of which AW says “Summit cairns are welcome sights, but they are seldom objects of beauty or admiration. Here however on the highest point of Lingmell , is one of singular elegance”

And from the Outlying Fells the cairn on Whitbarrow.

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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #6 on Feb 5, 2008, 7:49pm »


Andy,

thanks for qualifying this debate; I believe that when we discuss memorials there will be more diverse views.

Relating to cairns, I believe that the historic constructions should be tended as they are part of the heritage of Lakeland. And don't forget, all of our heritage does not have to " beautiful". Think of AW's comments regarding Honister Slate Quarry in his C2C DVD.
As for those who destroy cairns, it does annoy me. If someone parks a lorry outside my window spoiling the view, it doesn't give me the right to destroy it because " I " don't think it should be there.

Favourite cairn?? Probably the Bonscale Tower and Higher Pillar.

Lindsay
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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #7 on Feb 5, 2008, 8:16pm »
Good topic Andy.

Like Lindsay I believe that the 'historic' cairns should be looked after and maintained but the thorny issue of by whom could fill another Sharp Edge topic. It would be good to see the AW Society play a role in this considering the many comments by AW in the pictorial guides relating to vandalised cairns etc. There may be a role for some members to group together see what state the 'historic' cairns are actually in?

Pathway cairns and the growth of them are a contentious issue with many people automatically adding a stone to each when they pass - I do believe that in some places there are far too many of them and could cause more confusion than they were originally set up to allay. I do agree with Dave though and I couldn't contemplate flattening them either.

My favourite cairn would have to be the Westmorland Cairn but with Dalehead running it a very close second.




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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #8 on Feb 5, 2008, 9:04pm »
Cairns, love them or loathe them? This is a debate that has been going on for years and will no doubt continue for generations to come. On the majority of the Lake District fells you come across cairns that have been built over the years, some on the summits, others to mark the way on ridges and various approach routes.

Possibly the most famous of these is Robinson’s cairn, at the end of the High Level Route on Pillar and near the foot of Pillar Rock. Like many other famous cairns, this has been vandalised on a number of occasions but has been rebuilt by the faithful fellwalkers who care about the Lake District landscape and its traditions. I remember seeing it in 1973 partially destroyed on the first occasion I climbed Pillar, but a couple of years later it had been fully restored.

Robinson’s cairn is the memorial to John Wilson Robinson, yeoman farmer of Whinfell Hall at Lorton and one of the early Lake District rock-climbing pioneers. He is reputed to have climbed Pillar Rock over 100 times plus 50 ascents of Scafell Pinnacle and 40 ascents of Great Gable. He died in 1907 at the age of 55 and was held in such high regard by his peers that hundreds of them collected money that was used to purchase the memorial tablet, which is fixed to a rock near the cairn. The cairn itself was built by these friends on Easter Saturday 1908 and this erection was supervised by W P Haskett-Smith, the first man to climb Napes Needle and one of Robinson’s closest friends. The memorial tablet, made of bronze, was carried up to the rock near the cairn later in 1908 where it fixed in place. The tablet was dedicated amidst a terrific storm of wind and rain, and Pillar Rock was described that day as “being like a gigantic waterfall”.

This High Level Route to Pillar, one of the best traverses of a mountainside in the Lake District was a discovery of Robinson and the cairn stands right at the end of the traverse where there is a close up view of Pillar Rock itself. The cairn is one of a few special cairns in the Lake District and it is even marked on the Ordnance Survey maps at Grid Reference 179125. Other notable cairns include Westmorland’s cairn, which marks the viewpoint on Great Gable, often considered to be one of the best in the country.

Mountain cairns either delight or infuriate people as I said at the beginning of this post. Placed in the right spot, a simple cairn of only a few stones can be a blessing on a day when the tops are shrouded in mist, but often too many are put on the fells in which case they become a nuisance and can only serve to confuse rather than assist the fellwalker. On some of the most popular routes, Striding Edge, Moses Trod and the traverse from Broad Crag to the summit of Scafell Pike, they are every few yards and the walker is in more danger from falling over these piles of rocks than they would be from falling off Striding Edge itself for example.

Some summits have a number of different cairns, and as a result it is often difficult to determine what is actually the highest point. Fairfield is such an example. Rest Dodd used to have a flagpole on its summit whilst Harter Fell’s cairn above Haweswater has a jumbled assortment of metal fence posts and railings built into it.

Fine examples of summit cairns are Lingmell and Pike O’Blisco, of which AW mentioned the vandalism in his “Personal Notes in Conclusion” at the end of Book 4, The Southern Fells.

Besides Summit cairns which have their own particular significance, other cairns have great importance where they are placed at appropriate points from a navigational point of view. Going up The Band from Mickledore, for example, there is the cairn that marks the point where you need to turn right if heading for Bowfell Buttress. Also, on Gable, there are the cairns on Gavel Neese to mark the way to the Napes Ridges.

The height of a mountain is in no way necessarily proportionate to the size of its summit cairn. Take for example the contrast between Helvellyn with a very modest cairn of only a few stones and Hallin Fell on the other side of Ullswater, some 2000 feet smaller in height but with a hugely impressive cairn around twelve feet tall.

Most of the summit cairns of the Lake District were built by the Victorian walkers and climbers when they first started visiting the fells as a means to proving a guide to those who followed them. Despite modern technologies such as satellite navigation systems, I personally have been grateful to them for this on more than one occasion.

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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #9 on Feb 6, 2008, 11:36am »
I always think Thornthwaite Beacon is an impressive cairn, although I welcome the sight of any summit cairn after a steepish climb. However the "indicator" at the summit of Branstree is a complete let down, especially when compared with the nearby Water Board monuments.

I think the best advice is not to add to, or knock down any cairn, I can't remember where I heard it, though !

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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #10 on Feb 7, 2008, 6:16pm »
Thanks very much to Andy for starting off this topic. I think there have been some very interesting and informative replies.

On the subject of historic cairns, such as the Westmorland cairn, I think that all such cairns should be preserved as far as possible in their present state. They are of historic importance and are now a part of the Lakeland landscape. As to who should be responsible for these cairns, I think it behoves every fellwalker to do their bit by neither adding to, nor taking away from them any rocks or stones and ensuring that any significant damage due to vandalism is reported to the authorities. I would hope that the National Trust would ensure that any historic cairns on their land were kept in good condition. On other land, perhaps the National Park rangers have that responsibility.

With other cairns, as the point has already been made, cairns should neither be added to nor destroyed. I was shocked to see Cameron McNeish deliberately destroy a cairn on one of his walking programmes. Wayside cairns may seem to be superfluous, but in mist on an intermittent or non-existent path, they can be a great comfort to know you are still on the right track. I remember that we climbed Lining Crag in very thick mist on the Coast-to-Coast walk by following the cairns to the top. I was very pleased for their guidance that day!

Windbreaks are very useful places for lunch even if it is not a windy day! There are some summits, such as Skiddaw, that always seem to be wind-ravaged and under these conditions, windbreaks provide essential shelter. I remember that last year a walker had to be rescued from the summit of Skiddaw because of the windy conditions. A windbreak could even be a lifesaver.

My favourite view from a cairn is the lower cairn on the summit of High Stile (see photo on ‘Classic Walks’). For craftsmanship, I would choose the beacon on Thornthwaite Crag as my favourite.

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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #11 on Feb 7, 2008, 7:47pm »
Derek,
Thanks for the reply.
When you say "to preserve historic cairns in their present state" do you mean to leave them as they are now or restore them?
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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #12 on Feb 7, 2008, 9:15pm »
Andy

I would leave them as they are, now. We don't try to restore other historical monuments to their former state - just preserve what is there. The problem with cairns is that they can easily be dismantled or damaged. In one sense, they can never be restored as most are just piles of rocks!

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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #13 on Feb 7, 2008, 10:18pm »

Quote:
Andy

I would leave them as they are, now. We don't try to restore other historical monuments to their former state - just preserve what is there. The problem with cairns is that they can easily be dismantled or damaged. In one sense, they can never be restored as most are just piles of rocks!

derek


It's certainly a point worth considering. If you repair a badly damaged cairn it usually involves rebuilding it. Could that then be considered to be the original by virtue of using the same stones or not?
For felltop cairns it wouldn't matter too much but for the more "historic" cairns it could be an issue.
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Re: Cairns - Who cares?
« Reply #14 on Feb 7, 2008, 10:47pm »

Quote:
Could that then be considered to be the original by virtue of using the same stones or not?


Fair point Dave but didn't AW urge fellwalkers to each carry a stone up to rebuild a vandalised cairn? And would that cairn nowadays be considered original or artificial?

Similarily,if you walked up Gable tomorrow and found the Westmorland Cairn to be flattened would you leave it alone because it is now only a heap of stones or would you try to organise a working party to have it rebuilt?

Just a thought ;)
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