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The 214 Challenge

For members to discuss the challenge of completing the 214 Fells in Wainwright's Pictorial Guides and also for discussing walking routes in the Lake District.

The Wainwright Society Forum :: General :: The 214 Challenge :: Official summits
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AuthorTopic: Official summits (Read 399 times)
simonb
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Official summits
« Thread Started on Jan 3, 2012, 8:21pm »
To committed Wainwright baggers, is a visit to the summit cairn of Helm Crag considered a tick, if the very top of the highest rocks hasn't been reached? Apparently AW never announced that he'd reached the true highest point. It appears that Sir Hugh Munro never climbed the Inaccessible Pinnacle either, but the current Munro Society now say that's a must.
I've climbed Helm Crag 5 times but like AW never to the very top.
Also when doing the Fairfield horseshoe, I climbed from Low Pike to Dove Crag on the LHS of the wall, missing High Pike's "official" summit cairn.
Would fellow Wainwright enthusiasts say I can claim Helm Crag and High Pike or not?
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Frank
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #1 on Jan 3, 2012, 11:13pm »
Simon,

You are going to get some very interesting answers to this one so I will go first, but not everyone will agree with my view.

I think the initial premise is that in doing the 214 you are following in the bootsteps of AW.

That said then as far as Helm Crag is concerned a walk to the bottom of the Howitzer is really sufficient to claim that fell and add it to your total. There are indeed many Wainwright completers who have not stood, sat or hung on from sheer terror on the exposed top of that jagged finger of volcanic Andesite. So worry not that is my view.

Now when it comes to High Pike technically the cairn on the east side of the wall is the summit as described by Wainwright. However, the wall crosses a grassy undulation (I think the wall is broken at this point) and which I think is a smidgeon higher than the cairn. So I visit the cairn and then take a picture of the cairn standing on the grassy undulation. So I suppose it depends on how far to the west of the wall you were walking?

[image]

I have to leave that one up to you, but Helm Crag creates the precedent (walk over a Wainwright fell at any height below the highest point not exceeding an amount of declination equal to the height of the Howitzer and that's good enough - WOW NOW THAT IS CONTROVERSIAL ;D ;D)

If you are unhappy then you could always make a return trip 8-) Others have done so.

Do nothing until you hear from much wiser counsel on the forum. ::)

Regards and happy walking.

Frank.
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wainwrighteer
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #2 on Jan 3, 2012, 11:37pm »
Simon,

I suppose it's down to what the definition of a summit is and what your conscience allows !

I've just googled "summit" and the consensus definition seems to be "the highest point of a hill or mountain".

To me, that means that the Howitzer is the summit, not the cairn which could have been built at any arbitrary point nearby.

It would be unreasonable to insist that you have to stand on the summit in the context of Helm Crag. When I claim a summit I either stand on the highest point, touch it with my hand or for particularly awkward summits (including Helm Crag and the Inaccessible Pinnacle) make sure that my head is higher than the summit within a reasonable (arm's reach) distance. But that's just my opinion!

Using my rules, Band and Brown weren't the first to reach the summit of Kanchenjunga as they stopped short (10 feet ?) in deference to local beliefs that the summit was the home of gods. In this case, I would argue that they reached the summit - there was certainly no obstacle to them reaching the absolute top.

In my eyes, just because the highest point is awkward or difficult to reach, that doesn't mean we can claim to have reached it if we got somewhere near.

Cheers, Al.
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David
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #3 on Jan 4, 2012, 9:22am »
This subject has been debated here at length before, so I won't go into detail. However, in short I'd say that the logical extension of anyone who says you have to set foot on the very top of Helm Crag (say) to claim to have climbed to the summit, also should stand on the top stone of every summit cairn or every summit trig point to be able to claim to have been to the summit (= highest point) of every fell. I haven't been up the howitzer, but I've certainly been to the summit of Helm Crag as far as I'm concerned!

David
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Frank
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #4 on Jan 4, 2012, 10:00am »

Jan 4, 2012, 9:22am, David wrote:
This subject has been debated here at length before, so I won't go into detail. However, in short I'd say that the logical extension of anyone who says you have to set foot on the very top of Helm Crag (say) to claim to have climbed to the summit, also should stand on the top stone of every summit cairn or every summit trig point to be able to claim to have been to the summit (= highest point) of every fell. I haven't been up the howitzer, but I've certainly been to the summit of Helm Crag as far as I'm concerned!

David


David,

The only point with which I would take issue is that cairns and trig point structures are man made and not a feature of the the natural landscape. Sitting on the bottom of the cairn (if it is the highest point) is sufficient for me. I am much more likely to fall off a man made cairn and fracture my ankle than I am when I climb the Howitzer (well at least by the right hand route) ;D

Further to my comment about the summit of High Pike there is support for my view that the wall passes over the highest point from Mark Richards. On page 183 of 'Near Eastern Fells' his picture of High Pike from Dove Crag shows higher ground west of the wall. But I would never dispute that someone taking a prandial break sat on the cairn has not reached the summit - although the OED might imply otherwise 8-)

Cheers,

Frank.
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footix2
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #5 on Jan 4, 2012, 11:21am »
Some summits are suitable vague too.

Sail for instance. I have traversed and added to my list of summits, but I didn't visit the tiny cairn hidden somwehere in the heather. I didn't even notice it due to heavy clag. Maiden Moor doesn't even appear to have a discernible summit either. Scar Crags is just a ridge too, the high point is hard to discern.

I consider them both climbed though. I couldn't quite work out which was the summit of Buckbarrow either, which lead to me climbing every pointy bit I could find.

Sometimes the summits as recorded by AW aren't even the highest points.

As for Helm Crag. I intend to scale the Howitzer when I climb it, providing it doesn't look to awkward. I'm still young so it is best done whilst my knees and hips are up to it. If I fail to get the top of The Howitzer I will still add to my completions though.
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David
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #6 on Jan 4, 2012, 12:59pm »
Fair point, Frank.

What is important, I feel, is that we don't get hung up about it and certainly not critical of others if we ourselves adopt a 'purist' view.

David
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Frank
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #7 on Jan 4, 2012, 1:47pm »

Jan 4, 2012, 12:59pm, David wrote:
Fair point, Frank.

What is important, I feel, is that we don't get hung up about it and certainly not critical of others if we ourselves adopt a 'purist' view.

David


Spot on David and I think it has been said on the forum before that it is up to each individual to determine their Wainwright fells attained.

For the record as far as Helm Crag is concerned I have been on the Howitzer several times, but when I did the Greenburn Round on 6 January 2011 as part of my first full complete round I did not climb the Howitzer (its was wet and a bit icy) but I have no hesitation in including it as a Wainwright fell achieved for this round. I did of course repeat this tour as a member of the Society walk on the 28 May when I did have a stand on the airy top of the Howitzer.

For what it's worth my aim when walking the fells is to get to the Wainwright summit and then the highest point where this is different e.g Graystones and Whinlatter.

Regards,

Frank.

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Frank
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #8 on Jan 4, 2012, 2:09pm »

Jan 4, 2012, 11:21am, footix2 wrote:
Some summits are suitable vague too.

Sail for instance. I have traversed and added to my list of summits, but I didn't visit the tiny cairn hidden somwehere in the heather. I didn't even notice it due to heavy clag. Maiden Moor doesn't even appear to have a discernible summit either. Scar Crags is just a ridge too, the high point is hard to discern.

I consider them both climbed though. I couldn't quite work out which was the summit of Buckbarrow either, which lead to me climbing every pointy bit I could find.

Sometimes the summits as recorded by AW aren't even the highest points.

As for Helm Crag. I intend to scale the Howitzer when I climb it, providing it doesn't look to awkward. I'm still young so it is best done whilst my knees and hips are up to it. If I fail to get the top of The Howitzer I will still add to my completions though.


footix,

Good point and as you say in the mist it is easy to do (I missed Nethermost Pike summit when walking in really bad mist from Dollywagon to Helvellyn and I felt really stupid - I went back of course).

Sail summit cairn can sometimes be unattainable. Would you walk across this frozen mini tarn to get to it?

[image]

Yet arriving by the edge of than frozen water you would still count Sail.

I didn't think Buckbarrow was too bad and I take this as the summit:

[image]

There is a larger cairn to the NW on Glade How.

You will have no trouble with the Howitzer and the footholds on the right hand side are really good, but arn't obvious until you get up close and then the handholds are really firm and grippy. But keep away if it is at all windy.

Frank.

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footix2
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #9 on Jan 4, 2012, 3:29pm »
Yeah. I couldnt decide which of the cairns were the summit on Buckbarrow so did both and anything else that was suitably as high. But it was about 8am at the time and I think i was half asleep. :D

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simonb
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #10 on Jan 4, 2012, 7:55pm »
Thanks for the opinions. Al's point certainly holds true for Hewitts, Nuttalls etc. which are mathematically categorised, therefore reaching the highest point would seem necessary. But the spirit of doing a Wainwright is perhaps a little different. As Frank says, the Wainwright top isn't always the highest point. And some, such as Mellbreak, Grange Fell and Wansfell have two tops each, all worth visiting.

By the way, Footix, I've been to the little summit cairn on Sail.

And David's right about not getting too preoccupied with this. Climbing fells is as much to do with the journey as the destination!
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John Bewick
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #11 on Jan 4, 2012, 9:15pm »
Continues to be an interesting point. I think there's a big difference between a Himalayan summit where the highest point MUST be reached to claim it, and the claiming of a 214 where I concur with the 'follow in AW's bootsteps' definition. I also bet there's a few out there who have 'been' to the top of Blea Rigg and claimed it, but haven't made the actual highest point (not through lack of endeavour, simply that they may not have found it.

If anyone disgrees with the Helm Crag definition and says you MUST climb the howitzer to claim the 214 then I suggest they petition to get AW's name removed from the 214 completer's list!!!! ;D I don't think they'd win that one. ;)
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simonb
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #12 on Jan 4, 2012, 9:56pm »
Good point about Blea Rigg, John. Done it several times (or have I?)

And as we all seem to be trying to follow in his bootsteps, we must be "walkers of a contrary turn of mind" (ref. Armboth Fell 2)
and "people who won't be told" (ref. Mungrisdale Common 5).

But aiming to do them all does get us to parts of Lakeland we might not have thought of visiting before, such as around Over Water (interesting) and Longsleddale (beautiful).
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David
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #13 on Jan 4, 2012, 11:36pm »

Jan 4, 2012, 9:56pm, simonb wrote:
But aiming to do them all does get us to parts of Lakeland we might not have thought of visiting before


Totally agree. That was what I enjoyed most of all.

David
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3chances
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Re: Official summits
« Reply #14 on Mar 2, 2012, 3:40pm »
Jan 4, 2012, 9:56pm, simonb wrote: But aiming to do them all does get us to parts of Lakeland we might not have thought of visiting before




And this is the only sensible reason for doing them all, not that anyone here could be considered sensible.
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